The Unconventional Journey From Tie-Dye to Term Sheets with Thomas Cooperrider

In this episode, hosts Myles Biggs and Patrick Patterson sit down with Thomas Cooperrider, Principal at Dynamic Core Capital Partners (formerly Dubin Clark), to explore his remarkable journey from a self-proclaimed "hippie" middle schooler to a leader in high finance. With a unique background in engineering and economics, Thomas offers a masterclass in leveraging a diverse skillset for success.

Are you prepared for a future where AI is an accessible virtual assistant for everyone? Thomas unpacks his prediction for 2026 and what it means for personal and professional productivity. But what about the journey to success? This conversation confronts the challenges of personal growth, from embracing awkward phases to the importance of mentorship and stepping out of your comfort zone.

Tune in to learn how to embrace your own unconventional path, why "good enough isn't," and how to cultivate a mindset of continuous improvement.

Key Takeaways

• Embrace the Unconventional Path: Learn how Thomas's journey from a "hippie" phase to high finance was shaped by unique experiences and a willingness to diverge from the expected.
• The Power of Mentorship: Discover the crucial role that influential teachers and mentors played in shaping Thomas's career trajectory and personal growth.
• Leverage a Diverse Skillset: Understand how the combination of engineering and economics provides a unique foundation for problem-solving and business acumen.
• The Future of AI as a Virtual Assistant: Get insights into Thomas's prediction that AI will become a much more accessible virtual assistant for the average person by 2026.
• Good Enough Isn't Good Enough: Explore the mindset of continuous improvement and the importance of pushing beyond your comfort zone to achieve excellence.

Resources and Links

Guest:

Thomas Cooperrider's Substack: Subscribe to Thomas

Thomas Cooperrider's LinkedIn: Connect with Thomas

Connect with the show:

Myles's LinkedIn: Connect with Myles Biggs

Patrick's LinkedIn: Connect with Patrick Patterson

Level Agency: Learn more about Level Agency

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Transcript

Tommy Cooperrider 0:00

People tend to exaggerate their, their capabilities when, when talking about ai, uh, what I think, um, is gonna happen in 2026 is it's gonna become a lot more accessible for the average person to use, uh, AI as a virtual assistant. I think that's something that's pretty challenging to do today with the current tool set that we have.

Myles Biggs 0:22

Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. I'm your host, miles Bigs. Today we're here once again with the CEO of Level Agency and my co-host Patrick Patterson. On this podcast, we are driven by truth, sometimes the hard truth. We believe it's imperative to be relentless for results because if, if you're not your competitor is we're obsessed with how to be better every day because that's what our customers deserve. And if you can set aside your ego, if you can truly be no ego, then we're the show to help you go all in because good enough isn't. Today's guest is Thomas Cooperrider. Principal at the private equity firm, Dubin Clark. He's also a food enthusiast, a self-proclaimed amateur chef and critic, and an avid writer posting frequently to his own substack. We'll be exploring both his professional and personal journeys today and digging into the human story behind all of his professional success. So, Tommy, welcome to the show.

Tommy Cooperrider 1:25

Thanks, miles. Great to be here. Patrick, good to see you.

Patrick Patterson 1:28

Good to see you as well. We forgot. You forgot piano player.

Myles Biggs 1:30

Oh,

Patrick Patterson 1:31

I think that's, that's on the list as well, right?

Tommy Cooperrider 1:33

Pianist? Yes. Currently trying to convince, uh, my wife when we move into our new house, that we have to have a baby grand and that my keyboard just doesn't cut it anymore.

Myles Biggs 1:43

So, uh, before we dig into your career and what you're up to today, Tommy, I'd love it if we could go back to like the middle school version of you and I'm curious what that version would think of Tommy today. Would he be surprised or is what you're doing today always been the plan?

Tommy Cooperrider 1:58

God, it's such a good question. Um,'cause uh, as I'm sure for most people, uh, middle school was a terrible, awkward phase that I try not to think about too much. So, uh, I think if, I think if the middle school version of me saw what I was up to today, he might think I'm like a sellout because I was, I kind of went through like a hippie phase in middle school where I was wearing like a piece, I ne necklace and tie dye shirts and I had long hair and I was listening to like. Old Beatles records and lighting incense in my room, which is funny because I wasn't using drugs. Right. So like the fact that I was doing all that is, and not using drugs is kind of, I, I guess I, you just wanted

Patrick Patterson 2:41

your parents to think you were using drugs

Tommy Cooperrider 2:43

that to think I was cool and doing drugs. But, uh, yeah, I think I probably would think that I am some sort of, uh, corporate sellout, but would probably also be, uh, really, really proud that, you know, I still have, uh, good taste, uh, in, in, in music and in and in people and, and things and fun things to do and, and, and stuff like that. So I think he'd come around, you know,

Myles Biggs 3:09

that's good.

Patrick Patterson 3:10

So talk about that, that transition from. What is now gonna be the favorite image that I keep in my head of you from now on, which is hippie middle school, Tommy, uh, to, to, you know, kind of how, how did, how did you transition from, from that to where you are today and like what were those steps, uh, you know, and, and where did you start to evolve into this, this type of world that you're living in today?

Tommy Cooperrider 3:39

Yeah, it's a great question and I think like any good coming of age story, there's always, you know, a really great mentor or really great influences on you, and I was really lucky that in high school I had some wonderful teachers who for whatever reason, saw some potential in me and would encourage me to. Explore topics out outside the classroom. Um, and also cha be willing to challenge me, you know, in the classroom. I, you know, I think, um, I, I look fondly back on a, a, a physics teacher I, I had in, in high school who, uh, was a really great mentor to me in terms of becoming a, a well-rounded person. You know, he, the guy went from, you know, running a, being the manager of a furniture store to getting his MBA to then going back in, uh, teaching physics in high school and was just like a really cool guy with like a Jeep Wrangler with the top off and all that. And I'm like, all right. Like, that's, that's fun. And then, but then, uh, you know, maybe more importantly is I had a, uh, a history teacher who was really into economics and I didn't have a chance to take economics in high school. I didn't really have any exposure to it, and he really encouraged me to get into reading. You know, books by famous economists like Thomas Sol and uh, things like that. And so that really exposed me to this whole, you know, world of business. Like what, you know, where, what is, what is economics? What does it mean? What does the economy, how does it work? And that really started to shape my perspective on the world and where I want to take my life. And that, that kind of resulted in me, those two influences resulted in me going to school in undergrad to major in engineering and economics. Like that was the combination of those two influences that resulted in that and sent me down that path. And then those two things, the problem solving nature and then the business acumen is really what's kind of led me to where I am today.

Patrick Patterson 5:48

I think it's amazing when you think back to, you know, those moments. You know, I, it, it's funny, you know, you're talking about a phy, you know, a physics teacher or a history teacher, you know, I can just remember, I think it was like eighth grade. Mr. Snow was his name, right? And, uh, all teachers prior to that just let me coast, just let me do whatever. Um, and he was like, no, that's not gonna happen. And you're, I'm gonna push you as hard as you can possibly be pushed to be better. And, you know, at that was the first time in my life, I think it was, I think it was eighth grade, it was the first time in my life where I was like, I like didn't like him in the moment. And now I look back at that, at, at what he taught me. And, uh, you know, I, those lessons I took and I, I, there, there's a handful, five teachers I think from kindergarten through my, you know, my, the, the fifth year of college that I was like. They didn't, they didn't let me coast. They didn't, they didn't let me just do the work, check the box and show up, and it was okay. And that they were like, no, you have potential. I'm going to push you to get that potential. And in the moment I didn't like it. And now I look back, I'm like, oh my gosh. Those were the most impactful teachers that I had.

Tommy Cooperrider 7:15

Yeah. That history teacher. Uh, Mr. Eno, if he's listening call that I love it was the, uh, the first teacher to ever give me a D on a paper. I still got an A in this class, but I got a, but I got a D on a paper and it was like, it was s September of the school year, right? So we just started out and he gives me a D and my reaction was just like, who do you think you are? Right? But now looking back, I'm like, well, thank you Mr. Eno for teaching me that, you know, I can push myself to, to be better. Right?

Patrick Patterson 7:47

Yeah. Well, I think, I think that's, you know, there's a great book, uh, range and, you know, they talk about, uh, he, he talks about in that book, if you're going to get great at something, you really need to get uncomfortable, right? You really need to step out of your comfort zone. You need to be hardened in the failure. You need to be hardened in the, you know, in the muck if you're going and pick yourself up, or you'll never truly be great. At, at what you're, what you're going to do. And so, you know, it's the, it's those moments and it's, it's, you know, we can probably go back and miles, maybe the genesis of the name of the, of the podcast of good enough isn't, it's, it's those moments where people helped us realize that good enough isn't good enough, right? Like, we can be better and we can, we can push ourselves to, to things that we, we never knew were, were possible. Right? Um, and it's just, it's, it's cool. And I, and I love that the first thought you have is going back to those, those moments, uh, in, in high school and college and saying like, Hey, that, that's what pushed me. So you're, so you're sitting in college, you're a economics and engineering major, still probably the smartest person in the room. Uh, and, um. Talk to me about, you know, kind of what, where you saw that taking you in the future, and you know what, you know that that's an interesting combination, not a, not a combination that a lot of folks have. So where did you want that to take you and what were you, what were you trying to get, get out of that education?

Tommy Cooperrider 9:25

For sure. Appreciate the compliment. I am frequently trying to not be the smartest person in the room, which is also why I went and, uh, did engineering school, right? Because I knew that I was gonna meet a lot of people who are smarter than me. And those, I'm still friends with those people, uh, to this day because those are the people that I surround myself with to, to push me to, to be a, a better person. But yeah, you know what, what did I think I, uh, I was doing majoring in engineering and, and economics in a, in a non-traditional way to, to your point, I think what I knew back then was that there is an opportunity. For me to apply my skillset in, in the business world in a unique way. And I didn't know how to figure that out. So I knew I needed to give myself the right toolkit to go and go and figure that out, right? And then also position myself for the right jobs to get the right training, right. And so that it was this initial interest from these teachers that kind of set me down this path. I got into school, I stuck with the engineering and economics also, just because it was, it was fascinating to be learning these things, but I knew that like, all right, if I'm gonna compete to try to get the best jobs to try to get the best training to go and have an impact in the world, I need to have a really, you know, unique and differentiated skillset. Can I, can I pair up engineering and economics to be able to do that? Uh, and, and it, yeah, and I would say it worked out, you know, I was able to. Leveraged that into getting internships in, in finance. Uh, during, during undergrad, I was able to meet a lot of, uh, really smart people. Um, and then ended up, you know, getting exposed to, uh, people who were working on Wall Street, uh, and working in investment banking. Right. And that's how I first discovered this whole world of mergers and acquisitions, right. And how fascinating it was to me and how challenging it was and what I really admired about these people. I remember, I, you know, I, I met some investment banker and they were like, okay, you, you have to read. You know, liars Poker By, by Michael Lewis. It is like the, the foundational book for investment bankers. So, so I read it and I just thought these guys were the coolest guys in the world because they work super hard, they work crazy hours, they get paid a lot of money, and they seems like they have a lot of fun doing it. And I was like, all right, I feel like, I feel like I'm developing a skill set that I could try to leverage my way into this. And so that's what I did. I mean, I focused all my effort at that point towards networking, into, into finance and consulting and getting the right training and meeting the right people, being in the right rooms. And, you know, eventually landed myself a job in, in consulting, which, you know, uh, morphed into a, a job in, in investment banking. Um, and that's, that's how I ended up making a career out of m and a

Patrick Patterson 12:23

I, uh, I, I joke a little bit. And you've seen my, my progression in, uh, in, in this, in the m and a world over the past three years, uh, from, you know, not really having any experience to now what do we have, uh, you know, three add-ons and, uh, in a, in a, in a, in a bunch of, in a bunch of growth and conversations. Um, so you've been instrumental in, in teaching me and leading me in that, in that world. But I joke a little bit and say, man, if I would've known about m and a when I was 22, uh, I, I think, you know, I think that's something I could have also poured myself into.'cause it is really, really fascinating. You know, the, the problem solving, the investigation, the strategy, the, the, it's sales, right? It's, there's a lot of sales, um, and human interaction. And then at the end of the day, like you can have all of this analysis and you can do all of this work and you can, you know, have, you know, your discount cash flow model and you can do all of that, but you still gotta make a judgment call. And, you know, and you still gotta, you know, you still gotta use your gut and you still gotta, you know, you know, make sure that you're doing the right thing. And so it's, it's just a, it's a really, really fascinating, um, and maybe in an 80, 80 A DHD world, like me being able to have so many different things going on like that at any one's point is, is exciting. But, um,

Tommy Cooperrider 13:46

yeah, and, and being hard is what part of what makes it interesting, right? And, you know, it's not only a, a hard job, but it's, it's hard to get into. It's a very competitive field to get into. They, you know, m and a in the m and a industry, we generally try to only hire the best of the best. And I remember when I was in undergrad, I found some professor in some obscure department who, you know, kind of knew something about m and a, which, you know, when you go to an engineering school, it's hard to find these people, right? It's not like I was at, at, you know, NYU or something. And so, uh, I found this guy and I, and I went to his office and, and set up a meeting and, and wanted to just talk to him about like, how do I, how do I get into this? And he told me, don't bother. You're never gonna get in. Give up now and do something else.

Patrick Patterson 14:33

You never wanted to do it before,

Tommy Cooperrider 14:34

which is a crazy thing to say to a kid. Wow,

Patrick Patterson 14:37

that's crazy. How old were you at this point?

Tommy Cooperrider 14:40

Uh, I was 19 I think.

Patrick Patterson 14:43

That's not something you tell a 19-year-old. I said. That's crazy. Very jaded.

Tommy Cooperrider 14:47

It's crazy.

Patrick Patterson 14:48

Yeah,

Tommy Cooperrider 14:49

it's crazy. And so I said, I said, you know what? I'm gonna prove this guy wrong. Like, I hate this guy. I don't even remember his name at this point, but I just remember that conversation and being so agitated and worked up by it that I was like, I am gonna focus all my effort into getting into this industry. And that's what I did. And, and, and you do have to be very well-rounded. You do have to have a lot of different skill sets and you know, people make jokes. You see the memes on Instagram about, like all investment bankers do is move, you know, slides, uh, move, you know, logos around a slide and PowerPoint and make sure they're alphabetical and, and whatever. But you know, to your point there, yeah, there is a lot of different skill sets like, like sales, uh, like negotiations, you know, like marketing that, that go into and, you know, very detailed financial analysis that, that go into the job. That as part of, you know, what does make it so interesting that you're always trying to, you always have to be improving yourself and, and your process.

Patrick Patterson 15:45

Well, one of the things that was really surprising to me, and again, I was very naive to this whole world four years ago, but uh, is, is the importance of storytelling, right? The importance of the narrative behind the numbers. You know, when, and I'll just be very honest, when, when. Uh, you know, when we sold, uh, and brought on Dubin Clark as, as our financial partner, um, I assumed everything in the backend was all about spreadsheets and checklists and ver you know, and, and all of that does exist, right? All there. There's a, there's thousands of files in a data room, and there's tons, you know, there's analysts and there's all of that stuff. But really at the end of the day, like all of that just makes sure that, you know, it's checking a box of like, is, are there no red flags? But then the important part was the narrative, right? The, the, the story of what we're trying to do, the, the use cases and the, and the case studies we had for our clients that you could then visualize in the future of how that could expand the, you know, the, you know, all of that. So, so talk me through. I, I assume you probably had a similar realization when you started getting into this world about, you know, hey, it's, it's all gonna be math, it's all gonna be just, you know, quant. Uh, but there's a hu there's a real human and story element to the decisions you make. So do you have a story that may be, was like your first experience realizing that?

Tommy Cooperrider 17:23

Yeah, uh, absolutely. Uh, and to your point, you know, especially as an engineer coming into the industry, I'm like, oh, this is all like analytical, finance, modeling heavy. Uh, and yeah, to your point, it's important, but that's like just the table stakes. That's what, that's what you do to just need to even get to the starting point, right? Uh, and so once you're there, it's, it's, it's about the narrative. It's about the storytelling. And I think I, I really learned that, not in my first job in consulting, but when I got into investment banking and I saw one of the. Sell side processes I was working on, I was really lucky I got to work on a ton of sell side very quickly as a, as an analyst. And, uh, they all were successful, but I saw one of'em go off the rails and we had a, you know, a small, um, media company in the healthcare industry that we were taking to market and, and trying to do a full sale. But it was this quirky little company where they were doing conferences and events in one side of the house, and then they were kind of doing like this incubator thing on the other side of the house. And it was important because the incubator actually fed into the conferences new exhibitors, right? So it was actually really good for generating content for the conferences. But when you're selling to strategic buyers that are conference and events companies, they're like, well, why do I want an incubator? Right? And so in, I, I got to see firsthand. A narrative fail, right? Which I think is really important for the learning process. But then even more importantly, the managing director on that deal that I was staffed under and and supporting as part of a team. I saw her make a pivot and not only figure out a path to a transaction, but also have to convince the sellers that they needed to split up their company, sell half of it to realize this m and a transaction, and then refocus their efforts just on the other division to grow into something that they could then sell in a separate transaction. And that's like the true role of an investment banker, right? When you see. Someone acting just as a broker, right? It's like you're just facilitating a transaction. It, it, it, that's what it's, it feels very transactional. But when you see someone who can be a true strategic advisor and take a narrative fail, but then use that as an epiphany to give better strategic advice to the founders of a business, that's real insight. Right? That, and that, that's what really taught me about narratives, about storytelling, and about how to be a good advisor to someone.

Patrick Patterson 20:22

Yeah. Well, and Miles like you've been here in this journey as well at level, I think when you came on, when you started, uh, we were very much in a marketing world, mostly focused on analytics. Yeah. And, and numbers and quant. Right. And I, and I think in, in our world. You know, creative was a four letter word in a lot of ways, uh, because we were like, we can quant our way out of any, you know, any situation. And we're, we're just gonna be smarter. We're gonna be the math men, not the mad men, and we're just gonna figure it out. Um, but Miles, you, you, you actually led and our, our creative department for a bit and saw a little bit of that transition as we, um, as we were like, saw the importance of storytelling and narrative and, you know, so it's very similar, right?

Myles Biggs 21:12

Yeah, it is. And it's, it's hard to have one without the other really, because without the quant, what are you telling a story about? Right. And without the story, you can't really get the, the purpose of the numbers across. And so the handshake has to happen. Um, for sure. And Tommy, on your end, everything you just described and like that pivot, it's, it's like the whole thing's a puzzle and you're trying to find it to, to fit the, the, the right pieces in place. Um. But, so that brings me back to your engineering background a little bit. And so I'm wondering, have you seen beyond just the quant and the finance and the spreadsheets and all the stuff that has to happen on the storytelling side, do you find yourself using some engineering frameworks in your storytelling to make it all come together?

Tommy Cooperrider 21:56

A hundred percent. Right. It's, it's, engineers get trained on a, on a mindset. Really. It's'cause it's really no matter what kind of engineering you do. I mean, you could be doing mechanical, chemical, aeronautical, industrial. I, I was an industrial engineer, could be a civil engineer. What what you're doing is structured problem solving, right? So you're taking, uh, what is, you know, something that's, you know, inherently, uh, uncertain or hard to define, uh, or har hard to, hard to tackle. And you're not only, you know, defining the problem, you're, you're also trying to define what. Good looks like. And then roadmap your way to get to that point by using, you know, analytical techniques that they teach you in engineering school that they make you use pen and paper to solve in a very long and tedious way, which was not fun at all. But it's, having that structured problem solving approach has made me a lot more, uh, a lot more comfortable with dealing with ambiguity and in the business world and in m and a, I mean, everything's ambiguous, right? Yeah. And the, the future is inherently uncertain. And how do you, how do you problem solve your way to an end result five years in, in the future if you're not comfortable dealing with that ambiguity? So, yeah, I, I think absolutely having the engineering background has set me up for, for success in my role as a, as a PE investor. And I actually, you know, when I interview people for, for roles, I, I love interviewing engineers. I, I think they make great investors if they can compli. Having the engineering training with a more, you know, well-rounded skillset in, in some other, uh, way, either through on the job training or, or another major or something like that.

Patrick Patterson 23:41

At some point you decided to take the leap with Dubin Clark, uh, and, uh, I'd love to hear about that experience because in, in my, in my exposure to your world, uh, what I am told by, by countless folks that, that know about Dubin Clark and how you guys interact with, with, uh, with level is that Dubin Clark's pretty unique and in, in, in the way that you approach things, um, the way that you work with your investments. Um, so, so talk to me about that experience. I'm sure you had, again, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say things that you're gonna argue with me because you're humble, but like. I'm sure you had a ton of opportunity to go anywhere you wanted. And you know, there's way bigger firms. There's, you could start your own firm, there's all the options in between that. Uh, but at some point you said, Dubin Clark, this is where I want to be. And what was that experience like? Why did you make that decision and what, what have you found to be the reason why you continue to stay at, at a, at a firm like Dubin Clark?

Tommy Cooperrider 25:00

Great question. Yeah. DC is a, certainly a unique firm. You know, I've been here since 2017, so going on, getting close to a decade here, uh, which has been really phenomenal for me. And I'm very grateful to be, to be working at, at DC When I got into investment banking, I, I knew I didn't want to make a career out of it. I saw it as a good way to get training to pursue. Exit opportunities that are, you know, kind of glorified in the, in the finance industry. And there's a lot of different exit opportunities you can pursue, you know, hedge funds, vc, corporate development, private equity, et cetera. Uh, I, I kind of explored a bunch of different ones, but I mean, look, three years into my investment, no, sorry, three months into my investment banking job, I was reaching out to headhunters, saying, send me jobs. Right? I wanna be interviewing, I'm not here for a long time. So I was only in that job for like a year, right. I got tons of training in that short amount of time. You know, working a hundred hours a week helps with getting a lot of training in a short amount of time. Yeah. But the, uh, the, I had, yeah, and to your point, I, I was able to talk to a lot of different firms, right? And I was able to kind of get a flavor for what was out there from a private equity perspective. I was lucky that in my investment banking job, I did get exposure to the lower middle market. I was working with a lot of founders and small businesses. And that was after my consulting job where I was, you know, consulting with behemoths. Right. And I really loved working with founders and with small businesses. It's, you know, the classic example that people give is, it's like driving a speedboat versus a cruise ship, right? It's way more fun driving a speedboat. And so, uh, I, that combined with the exposure I got as a young analyst to senior management at these small companies just felt really empowering to me. Uh, and like a, like a rare opportunity. So I knew that I wanted to stay, uh, you know, even with that transition to private equity stay in that segment of the market where I would have, um, exposure to, to founders. And, and there's not, you know, there's not a lot of sophisticated private equity firms that deal with that segment of the market. Uh, as you, as you get down to smaller size private equity firms, I think they generally become more akin to. Family offices and, and 10 years ago, family offices were not as sophisticated as they are now. And, uh, so you, the, the sophistication level, um, just overall, you know, tends to, tends to decline. And so when I was introduced to the folks at, at Dubin Clark, um, when I was maybe nine months into my investment banking job, uh, I, I just, I just really hit it off with them right away. Right. I mean, culturally there was really strong alignment. They ran things very entrepreneurially, very, um, it was very collegial. Uh, I could tell just, just from interviewing with them, they had the, uh, exposure to the segment of the market I was looking for. They, they worked with founders, but importantly they were generalists. Right. Which I really liked because it was starting to see, and it's, and it's, you can, it's very clear now in the PE industry, but back then you were starting to see this trend of specialization. You know, people were like, okay, we're only doing. Healthcare or we're only doing software or what, you know, whatever the case might be. You know, there's some specialization at Dubin Clark because we do have track, good track records in, in certain industries, but I saw an opportunity for someone with a background in engineering, and then my, um, investment banking experience was mostly in technology and media where I could go and I could, I could have an influence right? On the, on the investments we were making. It wasn't just plugging me into a machine saying, okay, here's exactly the investments we were making go process these investments. Like that, that didn't, that didn't really interest me. What interested me was working with a bunch of smart people where I could explore ideas, have the freedom to explore those ideas. And I could have a group of colleagues who were willing to listen to me and challenge me on my ideas and, uh, and also be willing to accept them when they were, when they were good ideas. And so I had that opportunity to come into Dubin Clark. And yes, I executed on transactions that were in line with what the firm was doing already because I wanted to be an, uh, you know, a good team player, but I also had the opportunity to convince people to, to try new industries, right? And so it, it's never a fast moving process, right? Especially when you're hiring a young person. You're not just gonna be like, oh, they've got a new idea. Let's just go do that. Right? So it was a long process of, you know, educating the investment committee, of going out and building relationships with investment bankers. You know, I, I already had some because of the industry I came from, uh, the, the, and the end markets that we were focused on. But leveraging those relationships to increase deal flow, uh, in the areas that I was interested in so that I could be reviewing these deals in investment committee, even though we were never gonna do any of these deals early on, to just start, to start that spark, start that interest, um, with investment committee so we can understand like what, what does good look like? What are the right KPIs we should be tracking what, what's the right growth? How, how is customer attention, you know, all that, all that good stuff. And so, you know, eventually I, um, was able to convince them that there was a big shift happening in, in digital marketing, uh, at, at the time back in, I think this is around, um. 2020 when we started really looking at, at digital marketing deals. And I was able to convince in particular one of the partners that this was a really interesting, um, area to, to spend time on. And I really loved it'cause it was the intersection of, of tech and media, two places that I had, uh, really, really good experience. And so we started, you know, reviewing deals as a team and we passed on a lot of'em. And, and we found one that, that we really liked and we actually got under LOI and uh, then we realized like, oh man, you know, we still have never invested in a deal like this before. How do we surround ourselves with more experts? Like, okay, well we've developed a network and we tap that network. We got introduced to a guy by the name of Tom Donahoe, uh, who, uh, came on as an advisor to us and helped us diligence the deal and actually helped us make a really good decision to not invest in that company. Uh, because, you know, we just found a number of issues and diligence that just were. Too difficult to overcome and soon ended up passing on the deal. But now we knew this really great guy named, named Tom. And, and so we, we, we told Tom at the end of the deal, like, Hey, you know, we don't want this to be the only time we work with you. We've, we've built a good relationship here. If you know of any other, any other companies in the digital marketing space that you think could be a good fit for us, let us know. He said, oh yeah, I'll think about it. Uh, and then he introduced me to you, Patrick, and sort of, uh, the rest is history from there. But it wouldn't have been possible without the culture at Dubin Clark being open to some young associate who doesn't know anything, trying to convince his investment committee that we should spend time on digital marketing.

Patrick Patterson 32:28

Yeah. Well, um, I al I also remember that, you know, uh, and, and we had just done a, a management buyout of Tom and, uh, you know, he, he was, he, he was, uh, you know, he called me I think, and he's like, Hey, um. I, I know, I know this sounds weird, but, uh, do you want to talk to a private equity company? And I was like, uh, no, I don't. Like we just, we literally like, just, just like did a management buyout and we're executing our plan. He's like, well, you know, they asked me if they knew if I knew of any good digital marketing agencies, and I was like, am I allowed? He's like, am I allowed to recommend level? I don't know if I'm allowed. Right. He is like, is it a conflict of interest? I was like, I don't know, man. Like, you can do whatever you want, I think, like you can figure it out. Um, and I do remember the first call. With, with Dubin Clark, uh, I was in a gas station parking lot in, in like Phoenix or something. Um,'cause we were at a, we were at a, you know, visiting a client and, uh, I was like, yeah, I'll just jump on this call. I'm just not gonna take it seriously. And, you know, it's, it is what it is. It's the, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll humor Donahoe and, and take this call. And, and then I, I left that call being like, oh man, I, I actually really like those guys. That was, that was, uh, that was different. And, and for folks who don't. Who, you know, anyone who has started their own company or runs an organization knows that there is inbound offers, uh, for conversations, not inbound offers on your, on your business, but there, there are you literally daily, you get LinkedIn messages, phone calls and emails of people trying to buy your business, right? So, like I had set up over the past a few years, uh, before our conversation, just like blockers of any of those conversations and not taking any of them seriously. So you were the first one to break through. And we do have Thomas to thank for it, right? And, um, so I'm sure, uh, I'm, I'm sure all of that was super easy. None of that was hard. Uh, you, you didn't have any twists and turns along the way of getting to that moment. Right?

Tommy Cooperrider 34:40

It sounds nice. Retelling it like this. It's like a very linear path. I'm like, wow. Like my life has just gone so well.

Patrick Patterson 34:47

Yeah. Post hoc rationalization of how amazing your life was, right? Um, but uh. So, because we're gonna talk a little bit about the future and, and, and well the, the present and the future. But, um, if you could go back now and, and any point along that journey, if you could go back now and give yourself advice, a when would you go back to, right. At what point do you think it would be the most impactful to hear from your future self? And B, what, what would you tell yourself? What, what words of wisdom? And you don't have all day, you have five minutes, right. So, you know, what are you trying to impart in, in that, in that quick moment? And, and at what point in your life is that gonna be, are you gonna be able to hear it?

Tommy Cooperrider 35:36

I think I'm definitely not gonna be able to hear it because I think I definitely, I probably got this advice from people. Um, maybe I'll hear it a little bit, maybe hear, maybe like if I just one more, one more person telling me it might help a little bit, but I think as a. As a person who's early in their career, it's really hard to be patient when you wanna make an impact. And I think that that shows up in a lot of different ways. But I think, especially I think about the other digital marketing agency that we had under LOI, and you know, we talk about, you know, the story sounding linear, but that was, that was a failure in the story, right? Like, we tried to buy a company, we got it under LOI and we failed at what we set out to do, which was buy a company. We failed for good reason, which was, we found some problems and we ultimately decided not to, not to pursue the, the deal that we had struck with the guys, but I, I did, I wa every digital marketing deal that I was bringing to investment committee, I was trying to force it through. I was like, I need to put my name on something. I need to, you know, really carve out, uh, uh, an area of expertise for myself. I need to show that I'm bringing value to this firm. And so every time I got shot down, it felt like the worst thing in the world had happened to me. And then even when we found these diligence issues on this other company that we were talking to, I was desperately trying to save the deal. I'm like, well, what if we restructure the deal in this way and we change this to an earnout and we have them roll more and like, you know, all this stuff that you try to do to save a deal. And, you know, uh, the partner who had been supportive of me pursuing digital marketing, Mike Esh, who you obviously know very well, uh, and who I'm very grateful for supporting me in, in, in those pursuits that I had, um, gave me really great advice, um, you know, around like. Yeah, not forcing the issue, you know, not trying to save every single deal. Um, but it's like, it didn't, you know, it didn't really sink in. I was still like, you know, it still had, it took an emotional toll on me, right? To, to have these deals, uh, not work out. And ultimately all of these steps in the process, I think resulted in the absolute right thing working out, which is partnering with level agency, which is one of the best things that's ever happened to me in my career. Not only because I got to, you know, push for something, uh, in a new area that I was, you know, adamant about. I got to bring on my compasses as a partner with me to, to lead the deal together. Uh, I got to meet people like you, Patrick, who have been really important in, in my development as a, as a leader within, within Dubin Clark and as a, as a board member. Um, at level, um, but it's also just going really well, right? So it's like, that's, that's really nice too when things just kinda work out. It's like, I think I look at these other opportunities and I'm like, man, I bet we'd be fighting for our life right now. So it's like at least that, you know, you, you, you come to the right decision eventually. And that's, and that's what it, that's why my, when you ask that question, the first thing I thought of was patience. Because, you know, when, when, when you are patient and you do exercise the right judgment, then you know, things tend to work out better.

Patrick Patterson 38:53

I, I, you know, there's a, um, predictive index. It's like a Myers-Briggs or disc or whatever, and, um, it, it measures patience. And I'm like four Sigmas, uh, to, to, to, to the left of, of center, uh, or maybe I, they don't even have that on the chart, right? I'm like, so far. Uh, down you

Tommy Cooperrider 39:15

disqualified.

Patrick Patterson 39:16

Correct? Like I, you know, they were surprised I finished the test, right? Like, that's, that's how impatient I am. Uh, and, um, you know, I, I think it's, it's easy for anyone, and I know I did this, uh, you look at success and you look at the moment that that person is having success and whatever success means to you, right? It doesn't matter whether success means getting that promotion or buying the house or, you know, you know, having the, the picket fence with the two dogs or whatever, whatever version of success you have in your head, which shouldn't be, you know, hopefully is not materialistic. Um, but you at that moment probably is, and you forget, well, you don't see the, the, the, the work, the failure that went into that. All you see is the outcome. And you're like, well, why don't, why don't I have that now? Right. And also like it, you don't need to be the smartest person in the room to be successful. You don't need to, like, a lot of it has to do with luck. Right. And, and hard work meeting opportunity. And, and so like, you know, for me it was like, man, I want that now. Like, I just want that success now. And you forget like, Hey, you need to put in a, a lot of hard work. And I, and I, and I talk with folks and I like, that's why I like to talk about our stories. I like to talk about the times, Tommy, where you were working a hundred hours a week and you were failing and you were calling headhunters looking for a new job. And you know, and you weren't failing at that moment, but like you, the, the failures that you've had along your, along your career, because those are human moments that remind us it takes a lot of hard work. Continual hard work going to the gym every single day, uh, in, in life. What, whatever is the, the thing that you're, you're working towards. And then you have to be patient for the opportunity to hit. And, and then it was when it's, when that hard work and the opportunity meet together, that's where you, that's where you have success. Uh, but that doesn't come without either of those things. So, um, I think that's really important. So let's fast forward now to now it is 2025. Maybe when you're listening to this, uh, listeners. It's 2026. Uh, happy New Year to all of you. Uh, it's been a crazy year. It's been a little nuts. Uh, and one of the themes that we talk about on this, on this podcast is how, how business world is changing because of ai. Uh, and how the world is changing with AI and as an engineer, you know, this is not something new, you know, Turing tests back in the 1950s, you know, we've been doing machine learning and, and all of this stuff for, for years. Um, but I

Tommy Cooperrider 42:17

took that class back in 2012. It was, this was like a core part of the curriculum, you know?

Patrick Patterson 42:21

Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I remember I took an artificial intelligence class in 2002, right. Um, and, and it was, it was tons of fun. And so, you know, I think, but the, you know, the chat GPT moment, which just, just came on the three year anniversary of, uh, a few weeks ago, uh, changed the world a little bit in the, in, in that it democratized and, uh, made tech available to everyone, which before wasn't available. So talk to me a little bit about your world, about how. A how was that received? How was that change received in, in inside your world? And then, and then how are you capitalizing on it today and where do you see it taking specifically finance and, and uh, you know, that world in the future?

Tommy Cooperrider 43:16

It's been tumultuous for sure. Uh, it's been exciting at times. It's been scary at other times. Uh, I think, you know, we constantly think we're behind and we're, we're, or we're worried about being behind. Um, but I think that's what helps us stay ahead. Right. Is this sort of like low level anxiety about falling behind when it first came out? I, you know, I think it, um. Was treated a bit like, I don't know if you remember Smarter Child On, on Aim, uh, a OL Instant Messenger. Oh yeah. It was, uh, this is a funny little, it was a chat bot, right?

Patrick Patterson 43:57

Okay.

Tommy Cooperrider 43:57

And so it's like, it's like, okay, it's uh, it's another little chat bot, like that's fun, whatever. Uh, and it's like, you know, we we're the smartest guys in the room. We're PE investors like this. These AI chat bots aren't gonna be able to, you know, impact our industry and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, you know, I think that's a na naive take at first, right? And then I think we slowly all came to the realization, um, probably within, probably took about 12 months, uh, that like, okay, this is a new technology, uh, a new tool, uh, that we have to figure out how to incorporate into our workflows because. Other people are going to do that, and then other people are gonna be better than us. Uh, and so we have to stay, we have to stay competitive. But then also it's, it's not just about beating our competitors. It's like, okay, how can we be better than who we were yesterday or a year ago? And that's really where a lot of times we're, we're measuring our progress is, is looking back about, you know, where were we, you know, last year or last quarter, and are, are we, are we doing, are we doing better? Because, you know, we're, we sort of have this, this culture of, you know, continuous improvement. Like how can we always be improving the outcome of our investments? How can we be, you know, doing, doing more with less? Right. And I think that's really what a lot of these, you know, AI tools are, are kind of boil down to, for, for us at least how we use them in internally, um, and in the finance industry is that, you know, can we, can we in increase our. Output without having to meaningfully meaningfully increase our inputs and our inputs in, you know, we're, we're basically in investment management, so our inputs are, uh, people labor and, and capital, right? And so it's like, you know, we're, we are managing a certain amount of capital and we have the people to manage that capital. How can we use these tools to be more effective in, in managing that capital? Um, both in, you know, deploying it the, the right way and making the right investments, but then also nurturing those investments. And that's kind of the, you know, the unique thing about being a private equity sponsor versus being, you know, maybe a, a lender or being in public equities is that, you know, we have heavy influence over the investments we make after we make them initially. So we spend probably, you know, an outsized portion of our time. Um, managing our existing investments and trying to shepherd them towards, uh, the, the best outcome, um, than, you know, maybe any other, uh, uh, an investment manager might, might otherwise do. And so these tools, um, I think more recently, I mean, the acceleration in the capabilities of the tools has, um, been, been noticeable, uh, from, from, in terms of how we apply them. Um, and we've been able to, I think in 2025 has been the best year for us in terms of actually incorporating AI into our workflows. We made a big change this year. We, we've been using the same file sharing system, um, to, you know, to host a network drive for. Over a decade. I

Patrick Patterson 47:15

know, know, that's, and it's my favorite software. It's, I I, we're not gonna say the name of it, but, you know, uh, share file. It is, it was absolutely my favorite software that I've ever used. Yeah. Right. And Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

Tommy Cooperrider 47:30

Well, and, and if, and if you look at it, if you say, okay, what problem are we trying to solve? Sharing documents and having a network drive, is it solving that problem? Yeah, it's okay, fine. So leave it alone. But if you take on the lens of continuous improvement and you say, okay, well, you know, we're paying for this thing. Uh, could it be better? You know, and, and, and just starting with that question, it's like, could, could this basic, super basic part of our job that nobody really pays attention to, could that be better? And that, that's, and that was a question I was, I was asking myself at the beginning of the year, um, because I think as, as I think about. You know, integrating ai, and I would say that I'm probably because of my background, more willing to experiment with these things, um, maybe than, you know, uh, the the average person, right? And so, um, I was trying to think about ways like, okay, what are like the, the most stupid, boring tools we have that like, I can go and mess with them and probably won't get a lot of pushback. And so a file sharing system is kind of a pretty, pretty good, good place to start for something like that. And so I ended up advocating for, uh, changing how we were, you know, storing our files on a, on a network drive, um, and migrating to to Microsoft SharePoint, uh, because I wanted to accomplish, um, two primary goals, uh, one of which was doing, uh, live file collaboration. I'm like, guys, come on. It's. It's 2025. We've got people all over the country and even, you know, even for folks who are in the same office, we're on the road all the time. Why are we having version control issues? Can't we just collaborate in the same document? Like, it's silly, right? So, so I

Patrick Patterson 49:20

think that's what I said in 2021. I think those were,

Tommy Cooperrider 49:23

I, I think, so my exact words, he is a little slow to evolve. You have to, you know, patience, Patrick, patience. And so that's number one, right? I'm like, all right, that's a basic thing I can convince people of. But number two is having, you know, we work in the Microsoft Office suite that is very standard for, for the finance industry. The global financial system runs on Excel, which is kind of scary, but it's true. So everybody uses it. So can you know, could we have better native AI tools incorporated into Excel? Because, you know, a year ago, and I think it's still true today, when you upload Excel files into chat GPT, it's pretty. Unhelpful, right? Yeah. It, it's like, it's not, it's not a great way to interact with less mediocre with GPT. Uh, and so I'm like, I'm thinking through, okay, can we get some, you know, more integrated tools to, to help us with things like Excel and PowerPoint and things like that. And that's the beautiful thing about, you know, um, migrating onto SharePoint with Microsoft is in addition to the live collaboration, you can then, um, have a lot more power with copilot, right? So I was able to convince Dubin Clark that we should not only migrate to SharePoint, but we should also start paying for copilot licenses for everybody. And just the simple fact of giving copilot access to all of our documents and all of our emails and having just like, really basic functionality in PowerPoint and Word and Excel has given us, uh, so much more opportunity for efficiency. And it's actually gotten people pretty excited and people who I wasn't necessarily sure would be. The most, um, you know, they wouldn't be, the super users are still doing, you know, some basic things that are like, kind of new and exciting and I'm like, oh, I didn't think about using it that way. Like, that's kind of fun. Let's try that. And so I think we're still very much in the early innings of having basic capabilities. Like, so for instance, um, I needed to, uh, track how many hours I worked on something right? Over the past, like six months. And so I said, Hey, copilot, go look through all my emails and my calendar invites and gimme an estimate of how much time I've spent on this. And it did it, right? I mean, that saved me a couple hours of work, right? And then I, I needed two other people to do it. And so instead of trying to convince them to spend two hours on something, I just said, Hey, use this prompt and send me the output. And it's just, it just, so it saved probably six man hours. And it's like, yeah, okay. That's a, that's a small number in the overall grand scheme of things, but it's a real use case and it's, and it shows and it's, it allows me. To prove to my organization that there's something here and it's worth people spending time on this. And it's worth us experimenting on these tools to try to help us be better.

Patrick Patterson 52:09

You know, we were talking on our last, last podcast episode, um, with our new head of ai, Chris, uh, and he's phenomenal. But, you know, one of the things that, that I, I'd like to explore with you a little bit, especially being in the finance world, uh, is this, this, this fact, I think it's a fact now, it's no longer a feeling like the work that I'm putting in as an individual, I am doing more work in a, in an hour than I ever used to be able to do. Right. That's, that's just true. And, but I will say. After eight hours of really, really hard work where I'm like three to five x more productive than I ever have been in my entire career. I am drained after eight hours. And I was trying to figure out why, and we talked about this a little bit on the last episode, but it's, you know, we've replaced all the downtime, right? There's no more downtime. There's, there's, you know, there's no more write a document and send it off to a developer to, and then wait a week and a half for them to go do something. It's like, you have an idea and you have something in front of you right now. And so there's two parts of that. One, I think we're doing more in the time that we have, but also I kind of have this feeling that I'm not doing enough because there is just so much available and I'm able to do things so quickly. So I, I'm curious like, is. In a world, in, in finance where you guys work a a lot of hours, uh, do you see that continuing or do you see technology like this, uh, you know, scaling back the number of hours that you're spending because you're now able to really be uber productive in 50 hours versus 70 and allowing for more in your world, uh, more of a, a, a work life integration and work life balance?

Tommy Cooperrider 54:18

What an interesting question, and I appreciate that insight because I, the other day, uh, so I have a pinned to my browser that I'm looking at right now. I have copilot chat, GBT and Gemini, right? And I, I got like, I have the, you know, the pro subscription for each and I, the other day I was using. Each of those for three different tasks at the same time. And at one point I got so overwhelmed that I had to like stop. And because I kept hopping around from one to the other and I was like losing my train of thought and not keeping track of things properly. And I'm just like, I'm too productive. I'm, I'm going over capacity right now. And so I had to intentionally slow myself down a little bit. Uh, which was just a, a weird, a weird sort of experience that I had. In terms of your question about work life balance, uh, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say no, we're not gonna have better work life balance. I would say that it's, we're gonna take the same hours and what the trend that I'm seeing is that it's going to give us more time in those same work hours to sit together as a group and debate ideas. We're gonna spend less time. Processing information and more time brainstorming and collaborating and trying to think strategically together and challenging each other's ideas. Um, because we now have that extra time, and I, and when we're seeing this in action, we're, um, we've been able to have more strategy sessions at Dubin Clark, I think in the last, you know, quarter or six months than, than we've ever had normally, because usually the man hours required to consolidate the information needed to have that discussion was, was quite large. Right. And it's like, you know, we already have our day job and then we have to, we have to consolidate all this information, do all this analysis, disseminate the information, review it, then have a meeting while that whole prep timeline has become totally compressed. And so now we're. We're iterating on ideas, uh, much more quickly and reaching conclusions more quickly. So I think it's just, I think it's just making us, it's allowing us to be more impactful, and it's allowing us to spend more time on the fun part of the job, which is what I really appreciate about it.

Patrick Patterson 56:50

Well, it's, it's really interesting, right? So, like, I, I, when you, when you say that, I think about two things. I think about like Khan Academy, uh, where, you know, their whole goal was to teach you everything in at night. And then during the day we're going to have discussion, right? And we're gonna talk about the thing that you learned, and it flips the learning model on its head a little bit where, you know, typically in school you're learning during the day and then you're going and doing your homework, and then there's no time for discussion, you know, uh, until you get to college. And I'm sure you're seeing that, you know, or you, you've seen that, uh, while at business school, at MIT and you know. Probably, I would imagine some of the most impactful classes are where you're having the debates, the strategy, the conversation, and not like hearing the lecture, right? Like not just hearing the, the person talk. I can go like, I can go do that at night. I can listen to a TED talk, I can, you know, go listen to, you know, watch YouTube. I can, you know, watch a, do a course. What I want. The most impactful thing is the, the conversation, the, the, the back and forth. And so, you know, is that something you are, are you seeing that at, at MIT and you know, is that a similar kind of feeling that you think we're gonna get more towards a place where we're having those impactful debates, impactful conversations and less, you know, in the muck?

Tommy Cooperrider 58:19

Yeah. I, I mean, and, and that's a whole nother can of worms too, is how is AI impacting education and, and homework and, uh, how people are preparing for class and, and things like that. But I think the best business schools have always. Done a really good job of creating these forums for discussion. I mean, everybody, you know, it's famous, right? Harvard Business School and their, and their case method. Um, you know, we do some cases at MIT but it's not like a central, as central a focus is what, um, as what they do over, you know, across the river at, at Harvard. But, um,

Patrick Patterson 58:53

I love the way you, you, you folks in Boston talk about it. It's, it's, I love it.

Tommy Cooperrider 58:58

The, uh, we, what, you know, we're definitely seeing it at MITI think and well, and it, and it goes to kind of a, a separate, um, point as well is that, uh, part of what I really love about getting my MBA, um, a little bit later in my career than maybe the typical person, um, and doing the executive MBA program, is that the average age in my cohort is like 41. And so when we're in class and we're having these discussions, you know, I'll be sitting in class with. 50 or 60 people will be doing a lecture, but the lecture is not just a professor standing at the front of the room talking at us. It's a, it's a two-way discussion, um, that, you know, it's a, a topic of, uh, you know, that they've chosen for the class, some background and then a, and then a dialogue is that I get to hear senior executives from Fortune 500 companies, uh, talking about their experience, you know, implementing some, uh, operational analysis in their manufacturing plant and about what went right and what went wrong, um, and, and how, you know, they can, they learned from that and how they, you know, now have, um, better incorporated this tool that we're, that we're talking about in class, or this like analytical framework or, or what have you. Um, and, you know, and AI in the, in the classroom has been really interesting and, and really, um, contentious. I think it. Again, it allows us to prep more and get more work product through the door, but maybe in a less engaged way, which I think maybe, I think is probably one of the, one of the downsides here. It's like, okay, well instead of reading these 20 pages, I'm gonna have a, I'm just going to read the summary, which we had CliffNotes before. And you could kind of do that and you could skim things and you can get away with it. But it's also like, okay, I have to produce this essay. Well, I'm gonna have, um, an LLM do the first draft of me for me, and then I'm just gonna edit it. And it's like, okay, well then who really, who really wrote, uh, the essay? So yes, there's benefit. Yes, we're having really engaging conversations. I think LLMs are having a really positive impact in the business world. How are they having an impact in academia and in, in the classroom and in business school. I think that, I think the jury's a little bit out on that one.

Patrick Patterson 1:01:27

You know, we've talked a little bit about your, your journey into the finance world. Um, you know, now working a very stressful job while doing an MBA at one of the top schools in the world. Uh, and, um, still picking up my phone calls somehow. I don't know, I don't know how you do that.

Tommy Cooperrider 1:01:47

I love when you call,

Patrick Patterson 1:01:48

uh, but the, the thing I'm very impressed by. All that's very impressive. But the thing I'm most impressed, impressed by is how Oh, you have seemingly kept your humanity and, you know, just got married by, you know, all of these things. Uh, and still, you know, passionate about hobbies and passionate, you know, when Miles introduced you there, there's a list of things and none of them included. You know, how great you are at spreadsheets, right? And, uh, so. Where do you see kind of that going? And a, I mean, I mean, a, do you have any tips on how to do that? Because I, I, it's something that I think you do a great job of. Uh, but, but do you see. These tools that are created today in AI helping us get closer to being able to bring that humanity in? Or is it taking us farther away from that humanity because we're less connected with each other?

Tommy Cooperrider 1:02:49

Yeah. My, my, my wife says that, uh, she is, uh, constantly flabbergasted by my time management skills. Uh, so a very, very sweet of her to say that. And it's, you know, it's a lot of platitudes. It's like, you know, knowing when to say no to things. It's, it's setting boundaries. It's all the stuff that we all know to do, but then have a hard time executing on. It's really, so it's really about holding yourself accountable to actually, you know, doing those things. Uh, you know, um, hopefully, uh, not too many of my colleagues listen to this, but, you know, I don't have email notifications on my phone, right? Because I want to be able to time block. I want to be able to say, okay, here's what I'm gonna, I'm gonna be intentional about when I check my email and respond to my emails. And when you're getting over 200 emails a day. If you just have notifications on and try to respond to every email as soon as it comes in, you're never gonna be able to set boundaries or do, or do time blocking. Right? So I think it goes down to very, very simple and basic things. Like, like that example, um, you know, in terms of is how is ai, you know, impacting our, our humanity. I mean, it's, it's, it, it, it's responsible use, right? People are gonna use it responsibly and irresponsibly, you know, is it responsible to have an AI girlfriend? I don't know. Uh, it's probably not super healthy. Is it responsible to replace your therapist with ai? I would say, again, probably not, because I think, uh, human connection is incredibly valuable and important. Uh, and talking to an LLM that's programmed to please you, uh, is, is not gonna be able to, to challenge you or, or help you grow as a person. And so I think what's really important about ai, it kind of goes back to what I was talking about with how we even just use it at dc, which is understanding that it's a tool, uh, and it's not, uh, a vessel, uh, or a, or a substitute for, for human interaction. And using it like you would use Excel or a calculator. Um, or, you know, how, uh, in the eighties synthesizers, uh, came about and everybody talked about how was the downfall of music and, and how it's, you know, how horrible this is. It's like, well, no, it's just another way to make a different sound. It's, it's gonna be okay guys, you know, we'll still use pianos and violins and stuff. Um, and so that, that's what's really important. And it's like, and then, so, okay. How do you, how do you make sure that people do use these tools responsibly? I think, you know, people need to be educated about, you know, the, the pitfalls, the appropriate usages, the dangerous usage. I think putting up guardrails and restricting people's use is kind of a weird thing to do, uh, and, and kind of would limit creativity and, and exploration. Um, and so I think, you know, it goes, it kind of goes again, back to the platitudes about setting boundaries, about making sure you do carve out time for that human interaction. I. Go out to dinner with my wife every Saturday night, every Friday night we have pizza night. Like I do these things all the time, even though I could be doing something that's hyper productive and I could be working on a startup on the side and using no code AI tools to do this and whatever, but is that really what's gonna give me fulfillment in life? Or is a hot pepperoni pizza and a glass of Barolo gonna make me feel way better and way more of a human when I'm connecting with my wife, uh, over that on a, on a Friday night? And I think that's just about knowing yourself and knowing, knowing your values, and, um, again, knowing how to, how to set those boundaries.

Myles Biggs 1:06:32

So Pizza Night and Barolo sounds awesome, sounds interesting. Uh, quite the pairing. I'd love to. Hear from you what you think the pairings gonna be in 2026 when it comes to ai, you know, and this whole thread we've been on. If you had to make a prediction, we touch base with you again in 12 months, it's December. What do you think is gonna be true then? That's not true now?

Tommy Cooperrider 1:06:54

Yeah, I think there's a lot of, a lot of gaps in ai, uh, the AI tools that exist today in this, in the LLMs that, that we all use. I think, you know, people tend to exaggerate their, their capabilities when, when talking about ai, uh, what I think, um, is gonna happen in 2026 is it's gonna become a lot more accessible for is average person to use, uh, AI as a virtual assistant. I think that's something that's pretty challenging to do today with the current tool set that we have. You know, like, uh, I'll give a, I'll give a pretty basic example. I can't go into copilot and say. Send a calendar invite to this email address for this date and time with this topic and have it do it. Uh, and so I think being able to, um, take those, uh, admin tasks and evolve that, uh, evolve the LLMs into being able to execute on those is gonna be a big game changer for people, right? Because then we can, we can shift people's time from, uh, doing these, you know, important but less value add tasks to more, more critical tasks. Uh, more, more strategizing, more forward looking, more, more brainstorming, more, you know, being with other humans. Uh, I think that's really where, where the value's gonna come in 2026.

Patrick Patterson 1:08:15

Let the robots do the robot work, let the humans do the human work, right? Um, it's just figuring out where the, the line between those two things is, and then building the bridge to, to get there. But, uh, that's, that's an exciting future. That we can think about, you know, even outside of virtual assistant, you know, if we can all think about, hey, what are, what are the tasks that don't bring us energy? What are the things that I'm doing over and over again? What are the, what are the things that don't lead to more human connection? Uh, how do I remove those things from my life? Right? And we should be thinking about that in general as just humans. But then the tools, to your point, the tools, make it possible in a way that has never been possible before to actually realize that reality. So, um, you know, my, my, my larger thought on this is that it's, it is gonna lead to a renaissance of creativity in a way that we, we haven't seen before. And I don't think that's gonna happen by the end of 2026. Uh, but I do start, I, I do feel that. With the advancements in image gen and video gen and audio gen, which have just like in the past, like the last two weeks have been crazy with model drops. Uh, the, the line between idea to finished product is, has never been shorter, right? And the path to walk there has never been shorter, which leads to more iteration, more, more creativity. Um, if we can remove barriers from smart, creative people to create awesome product, uh, whether that barrier be their geographic location like their, in a country in Africa that doesn't have access to whatever, or whether that barrier is tech skills to code something or whether that barrier is, uh, whatever it might be. If we can remove those barriers utilizing this technology, we get to unlock the creativity that's just inherently inside of people. And I'm super excited about that.

Tommy Cooperrider 1:10:26

Couldn't agree more. It it, I mean like, like, like I said with how it's changed how we work at dc, being able to spend more time collaborating and brainstorming, uh, to what I'm looking forward to next year, which is again, doing less of the monotonous work and spending more time on interacting with humans and thinking like a human, that that's what's, that's what's exciting about it. Freeing up our time to spend time on the things that give us real satisfaction and gratification

Myles Biggs 1:10:59

as, uh, as we wrap up this episode, Tommy, if listeners wanna follow up more on your story or, or connect with you as a human, as you're saying, where should we direct them to? Where would they find more of you?

Tommy Cooperrider 1:11:09

Yeah, absolutely. LinkedIn is a great place to, to find me. I. I'm pretty sure I'm the only Thomas Cooper editor on, on LinkedIn. Um, but definitely the only one, uh, working at, at Dubin Clark. So it should be, uh, easy enough, uh, to find and, uh, be very easily reachable on there.

Patrick Patterson 1:11:30

You're not going to plug your substack, you're not gonna plug your sub stack. I can

Myles Biggs 1:11:34

walk us there.

Tommy Cooperrider 1:11:35

I, I mean, yeah. No, I'm, you know, I, it's, it's more of an organic thing, you know, it's like if people find it and wanna subscribe, they can. I'm happy with my subscriber count. I'm not trying to go for setting records. I, my friends and family read it and that's what's important to me.

Patrick Patterson 1:11:50

Yeah. Well, uh,

Tommy Cooperrider 1:11:52

setting boundaries, Patrick,

Patrick Patterson 1:11:54

I appreciate that. Uh, I will say as, as one of your readers, uh, it is very well done and, uh, again, showcases your, your. Strategic thinking, your creativity, the way that you look at the world in a, in a, in a very, uh, unique way. So I enjoy it. So if with your permission, maybe we'll, we'll throw it in the, in the show notes, but, uh, for sure. But, uh, thank you, thank you for coming on to the podcast and sharing your story. Uh, you know, I think it can be very inspirational to, to folks that are, you know, considering, you know, different phases in their life right now, and, you know, hearing about your successes and your failures and the reasons that you made decisions. And also maybe, you know, thinking back to, uh, those moments, it would've been helpful to hear things like. That hard professor is actually gonna be the thing that you appreciate the most, or that failure is gonna be the thing that you learn from the most. Those are very what a jerk

Tommy Cooperrider 1:12:55

Right.

Patrick Patterson 1:12:55

Things to hear. Right.

Tommy Cooperrider 1:12:59

My guidance counselor in high school told, told me, don't ever bother applying to MIT you'll never get in.

Patrick Patterson 1:13:04

You should, you should send them a, a photo of, of, of you. Um,

Tommy Cooperrider 1:13:09

yeah. Well on graduation

Myles Biggs 1:13:10

day, graduat graduation.

Patrick Patterson 1:13:11

Yeah. That's right.

Myles Biggs 1:13:12

Alright everyone, well thank you. Thanks

Tommy Cooperrider 1:13:13

guys.

Myles Biggs 1:13:13

Thank you again for being here. And then thanks to the listeners for hanging with us. Uh, make sure that you subscribe to good enough visits so you don't miss any future conversations like this. We'll see y'all next time.